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City:Capital District, NY US
HomePage or other cool site:http://www.swa-gaming.org
Membership19years 278days ago.
Last Login2years 145days ago.
Last Move5years 163days ago.
TXWard is currently Offline!Send a mail to TXWard


Message header
Area/Game:Blue Max
Topic:Rules
Subject:Re: Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
Posted by: TXWard - 18years 300days ago.
Message text
HeadMMoid wrote:
TXWard wrote:
HeadMMoid wrote:
As for shooting down the fuel issue, I (to repeat myself) have no doubt that actual changes to the rules are not going to occur on site, but still hold most firmly that the game overall could be improved by modifications to the fuel rules or by the replacement of the fuel rules with other, more historically accurate means of controlling the length of an engagement.

I thought the fuel boxes for each planes was based on the historical aircraft designs. Are you saying that you know this is not the case? That would certainly be a disappointment.

Not only is that not even close to what I have been saying, it is completely unrelated to what I was discussing in the post to which you responded. Had you bothered to pay attention to the entire discussion and to what I have previously posted, you would have seen that in my first post within this thread I included a specific description of how the number of fuel boxes were determined.

What I have been and am saying is;
1) There is no meaningful relationship between the maximum theoretical endurance of an aircraft (which is the value from which the fuel boxes are derived) and its time in any individual combat.
2) There is no historical evidence of which I am aware to suggest that fuel was a primary consideration historically in the limitation of actual aerial combat in the First World War.
3) Therefore, even though limiting fuel does work as a game mechanic to place a restriction on the length of Blue Max games, it is not particularly valid historically.
4) If fuel is to be used as a limiting mechanism, then, since the effective flying and combat times of the aircraft were much closer in length than is suggested by their maximum endurance values, the fuel allowances should be correspondingly closer, which means that many German aircraft should have a greater number of fuel boxes.
5) There are other, more historically accurate means of controlling the length of an engagement.

Okay, let's be calm here. I'm sorry that I missed your first post on this thread. When the chatter got to be more about fantasy laser guns and noise like that, it makes it tough to find the intelligent contributions to the discussion like yours above. Again, my apologies.

Regarding your initial post:
HeadMMoid wrote:
Using as examples two aircraft mentioned in your post and elsewhere in this thread (and noting that this is a comparison of similar aircraft types - single seat fighters in this case);
  • The RAF S.E.5a had a technical maximum endurance approaching 2-1/2 hours. However, its effective flying time in formation and allowing for combat was about 1-1/2 hours. Further, its pilot instructions indicated that combat flights generally be limited to a maximum of about 1 hour.
  • The Fokker D.VII had a technical maximum endurance of about 1-1/2 hours. Its effective flying time in formation and allowing for combat was just under 1 hour.
  • This suggests that the ratio of the fuel amounts for these aircraft should not be 52 boxes to 37 boxes (or 140% advantage for the S.E.5a), but probably more like 65 minutes to 55 minutes (or 118% advantage for the S.E.5a), which would give the D.VII around 44 boxes of fuel. This, of course, assumes that one is only using the numerical fuel limitations for restricting engagement length, and not including other factors.

  • Unless you know what the pilot instructions were for the Fokker D.VII, shouldn't apples be compared to apples? The "effective flying time" for the S.E.5a was 1-1/2 hrs., that of the Fokker D.VII was 1 hr. This gives the S.E.5a a 150% advantage over the D.VII, which is even better than the 140% in the game.

    I originally came here to learn how to play because I was getting into Canvas Eagles - a game based on Blue Max using miniatures and altitude rules. In CE, ammunition is tracked like fuel, but the fuel boxes are the same as in BM. I disagree that the fuel boxes as shown are a problem, but that's just me.


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    18years 303days Killer1 [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days Capt-Tuttle Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 302days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days SteveMartin Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days Ray_Collishaw Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
     18years 303days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
      18years 303days redwom Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
      18years 302days SteveMartin Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 302days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days Ray_Collishaw Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days warrax Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days gugliandalf Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
     18years 301days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days Zif Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days imdog Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 295days Killer1 Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 295days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days Wishgamer Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 303days warrax Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
     18years 303days Regis Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
      18years 297days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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    18years 303days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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    18years 303days TnT Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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     18years 302days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
      18years 301days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
       18years 301days Zif Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
       18years 301days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
       18years 301days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
       18years 300days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
        18years 300days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 300days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
          18years 300days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           18years 300days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            18years 300days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 300days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 299days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 299days teramaze Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 299days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
              18years 299days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
               18years 299days teramaze Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
               18years 299days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
                18years 299days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
               18years 298days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
                18years 298days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
                 18years 297days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 299days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 299days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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